Ep. 75 - The Johnny Depp-Amber Heard Debacle

Hi, this is Colin McCallin. Thank you for listening. Please do us a favor and leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe so that you don't miss any future episodes. Thank you. 

Welcome to is this legal? Here are your hosts attorneys calling McCallin and Russell Hebets. 

Hello. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of is this legal? My name is Russell Hebets. I am here with my partner, Colin McCallin. 

Hello everyone. 

So today we are going to be talking about the absolute absurdity of the Johnny Depp, Amber herd trial. 

How about some of our listeners were wondering if we were gonna get to this ridiculousness and to be honest with you, Russ, and I kind of debated it. We're like, okay, is, is this whole thing just too ridiculous for our listeners? And it turns out the answer is no, it is not. 

The answer is no, nothing's too ridiculous for you, our listeners. And this one is really, really ridiculous. So, I mean, just let's, let's set the stage for anyone. I mean, this has been everywhere. So for anyone who's like looking at anything sensationalized, 

I would imagine there are many people out there who are like, okay, yeah, I know this stupid trial's going on right now, but I don't know what's happening. So that's why they're tuning into us 

Probably for weeks. I was like that. Yeah. I mean, I was like, here's another headline, right? I'm gonna skip it. It's everywhere. But then even they wore me down Colin, I know 

They wore us down. Right. 

We, we couldn't resist anymore. So we dove into it and we are gonna, 

So you don't have to. So, 

So you don't have to. All right. So, so Colin give them the, uh, the, uh, cheap seats overview of where we are right now. 

<laugh> great. Well, we are about four weeks into a six week trial. Yes. I said that correctly, six weeks, this case, this defamation civil case is taking longer than most first degree murder trials take. Uh, but nevertheless, that's where we are. We're four weeks in, uh, here is what's going on. Johnny de the actor is suing his ex-wife, who is also an actress. Her name is man. Uh, pardon me, Amber herd. He's suing her for 50 million based on a 2018 oped that she wrote in the Washington post. This is a libel suit. This is in other words, defamation. Um, so he is claiming that things that she said in that op-ed are false 

And, and, and real quick, if anyone wants like a primer on slander and libel, we put out a podcast on this, take a Gander that's right at this slander. 

That's, that's what it's called. Right. But you should take a Gander at this slander <laugh> um, so we covered defamation before, but this is a good one. Now there's also a countersuit, right? Russ what's uh, what is, what is miss herd suing? Uh, Mr. De for? 

So miss herd got sued for 50 million says, Hey, all right, I want in on this action, I'm gonna go ahead and counter Sue for 100 million. And it's essentially based on statements, his attorney, Mr. Waldman, I believe said basically calling it a hoax. 

Right, right. Uh, calling 

The suit, the Johnny de suit. 

Yeah. She said, uh, I'll see, your 50 million I'll raise you 100 million, uh, exactly. Referring. And, and she's basically saying that she was defamed when Johnny Depp's lawyer called her claims fake and a sexual violence hoax. So basically we have two fingers pointing directly at each other for both of tHebetse people. And, um, ridiculousness is now ensuing. All right. 

So first of all, you know, how, how did poor Johnny get dragged into this when his lawyer is the one who said it, right? I mean, like why isn't, Walman a party to the suit? 

Uh, you know, that's a good question, Russ. I know why 

Walman doesn't have a hundred million 


She's she's basically saying it was a conspiracy that it was coming from Johnny 

Dead. Well, there's no way that money is any, uh, way important to either of tHebetse parties. Right? Russ, I mean, this is simply two people trying to correct their good name in the press. I'm I'm sure. I'm sure they have nothing but Goodwill toward the other party. Right. 

I mean, I tell ya, I am not even sure that money is the primary per purpose here. Like I think that they each, especially Johnny Depp with filing this, I really believe that he just wants to burn, burn 

It down. Yeah, you might. Well, you might be right. And, and we're gonna kind of talk about, you know, we're, we're gonna armchair quarterback this thing a little bit later on in the podcast about our own personal feelings, but let's get back to the law. Shall we? Um, now I I'll set this up a little bit more just about the history. Again, this goes back to this 2018, um, op-ed that Amber herd wrote, you can find this, uh, online. It was, it was published by the Washington post. Several news outlets have links to it, um, and we'll get to it. But before this defamation case happened in, in the United States, um, there, there was other legal action that Johnny Depp was a part of. He sued a British tabloid called the son. And this is, this is a rag out of the UK that, uh, you know, follows celebrities, paparazzi, all that stuff. And back then the, the, the, uh, there was an article that the son put out where they were talking about Johnny Depp in the wake of the allegations that Amber heard made against him is essentially being a, a, a, you know, they, 

They called him a wife beater in the headline. They called him a wife beater. That's exactly what they called him. And Johnny Depp sued in England and said, that's defamation, she's calling me a wife. Or the, the paper is calling me a wife beater. I'm not a wife beater and I'm suing the son. And so that went to trial in England. That's right now, different legal system, different rules of evidence. But in that trial, there was something like 14. And I'm, I may not be exactly right, but I think 14 age that's that's right. That's right. 14. See, look at that once in a while I get it. Right. So 14 separate allegations of times when 


Amber, when herd said that de abused her and the judge in that case, after a trial, it went to trial. He found, I think 11 of them were proven to the civil standard. Right. Okay. So, so that means no criminal charges, no criminal convictions, you know, here it's proof beyond reasonable doubt. I don't know what the standard is, is in England, but for civil it's lower. And the judge said, yeah, there's enough here to say you beat her 11 times, 

Right? Yeah. So to dumb this down, basically by, by suing this newspaper, the newspaper then kind of had the, the, the burden to show, well, tHebetse allegations are actually true. There, there was abuse at the hands of do Johnny Depp to Amber hurt and who better to, uh, testify about those things. Then Amber hurt herself. She was a witness for the son. And she testified, uh, as you correctly stated a moment ago, about 14 separate instances of abuse. And the judge basically said, I find 12 of tHebetse to be credible. So, uh, this is a judge, not a jury, but Johnny Depp lost this suit. Now, Russ, I've got a question for you. I mean, it sounds like we've got a ruling against Johnny Depp. How is he then able to come back and Sue Amber herd when he already lost a case that was similarly situated. 

And that is because double jeopardy, which prevents people in America from being tried twice for the same crime or same issue for being tried again. Um, this was in England. Yeah. England doesn't have the us constitution. England doesn't have double jeopardy. England doesn't have any reciprocity in, you know, honoring rulings from out from the, between the two jurisdictions. Did 

You hear that everybody, that's the legal analysis you can't get anywhere else. And he's absolutely right. Um, and there's also one more thing to it. I mean, remember Johnny Depp is suing herd personally, right. He's not suing the son. He's not trying to go after the son in state court. He's going after Amber herd personally. 

And, and he's not suing the Washington post. 

Yeah. Which is interesting. Right, right. Exactly. But I think that, that, that's interesting because this was not an article by the post. Right. This was an oped written by Amber herd. Right. That was, was published by the post. Right. The post was essentially a vessel. Right. Um, so that's a little bit about, so that's, that's the history behind that case. Now, Russ, let's talk about this case that's going on right now. And let's talk about defamation again, let's review what we've previously covered earlier, but let's talk about defamation specifically as it relates to public figures. 

So, so we'll, we'll be real quick here. Truly, if you want a deep primer, go back to our other episode, but there's basically three things that need to be proven. Right. 

That's right. Um, so Johnny Depp has to prove that Amber herd's statement, which we're gonna talk about in just a second, he has to prove that that statement was false. That's the first thing he has to prove. The second thing he has to prove is that Amber heard acted with actual malice in the publication of her statements, which means that she either knew the statement was false or was reckless as to its falsity. All right. And then finally, Johnny Depp has to prove that the publication of this statement caused financial harm to him. And by the way, uh, this goes the other way as well. Amber heard has to meet tHebetse exact same standards to prevail against her defamation in her countersuit, against Johnny D. Right. 

That, that, that the lawyer said 

Exactly. That the lawyer said, 

Basically that it's a, it's 

A hoax. Exactly. Yeah. 

All right. So here's, here's what she said. She wrote an oped December 18th or 19th, 2018 in the Washington post. And really it's, it's interesting in this whole op-ed Johnny Depp is not mentioned by name, 

Not one time. Okay. 

Here is, here is what she said. And again, we're talking 2018. So that, that date is important. The two key lines that got her potentially in trouble are then two years ago, I became a public public figure representing domestic abuse. And I felt the full force of our culture's wrath for women who speak out that's one line. Another line is I had the rare vantage point of seeing in real time, how institutions protect men, accused of abuse, those two lines purportedly refer to Johnny Depp. 

Right. I, I think, you know, Russ and I were kind of talking about this as we were preparing, uh, to talk to you all about this. I think, uh, with that first statement, it it's short enough. I'll I'll just repeat it. Then two years ago, I became a public figure representing domestic abuse. Right. Um, the, the line then two years ago, that's even though she doesn't mention Johnny de by name, she connects a timeline where the only person she was with two years ago, or that she got divorced from two years ago was Johnny Depp. 

Yeah. And in 2016, everyone, they were going through a divorce. Exactly. They were going through a public 

Divorce, right. As all celebrities do. Right. 

That right. <laugh> 

So there's no such thing as a private celebrity divorce. Is there? 

No. Well, well now you know what there is, there's now a celebrity UN uncoupled, 

Well, Gweneth F your own Chris Martin style. We're, we're gonna UN uncouple ourselves, like a couple of trained cars. We're just gonna, you know, drift apart, roll our separate 

Ways on the track. 

<laugh> like they should have continued that metaphor. That's great. Um, but I, I mean, look, I, I'm gonna start with this. I mean, you know, you guys are listening to us for analysis. This is not that bad on behalf of Amber herd. And, and I, I can just about guarantee. In fact, there's been some testimony about this. It's not like she just, you know, wrote this, op-ed fired it off and it was published. I guarantee you, she had a team of lawyers, uh, looking over this, advising her what to say what not to say. And I will tell you, I, in my opinion, her, her, her lawyers did a decent job. She didn't say what kind of abuse she suffered. She didn't say whether or not this was physical abuse or emotional abuse. She doesn't give anything regarding timeline, uh, in terms of, well, she does what happened went two years ago. <laugh> well, she, she said she became a public figure, but she doesn't talk about when the abuse happened. Okay. So there's, there's a lot, she did not say in this, and there's no specificity in this. Well, 

This wasn't the first draft, you know, this was, this was written in conjunction with the a C L U the American civil liberties union. Um, they were involved in wanting her to come forward and be basically the face of a, a domestic violence victim. Right. And they actually, they drafted a partial op-ed where it actually did go into details about Johnny Depp being the perpetrator. And that was all that language was struck under the terms of their divorce, because there was essentially like a 

Gag order. There was a non-disclosure agreement. Yes. That both parties signed that, that indicated they were not allowed to discuss what happened during the marriage. Right. And you know, so much for that. Yeah. Right. So let's go right. And oped in the Washington post and publish it everywhere. Right. Um, you know, so, but again, it's not like she ever comes out and says on June 13th, Johnny Depp grabbed me by the throat and choked me. Like it, it has no, no such specificity, uh, in this, uh, document. Um, so I actually think it was drafted very, very carefully, but Johnny Depp obviously, uh, read the, uh, read the oped and turns out he was not happy about that. Yeah. 

He, he knew who it was referring to. He was not happy about it. And, and frankly, like to, to his credit, you know, the things that Colin said, you have to prove for defamation suit. The third thing is, um, that damage. 

Yeah. You have to prove that this actually cost you, it cost an injury to your reputation, which is leading you to miss out on some opportunities. 

And that did happen with Johnny Depp. Well, he did miss out on opportunities. 

Let's talk, talk about that. What, uh, what did he, what were some of the things that ended up happening in the wake of this Omid, 

THebetse allegations of domestic abuse, he had some very significant things happen in his career. He was, first of all, dropped from the third Harry Potter and the fantastic beasts 

Movies. Right. He was gonna be the Grinold wizard. He he's a big character in that 

Big character. And, and he was, he was in the, uh, he was in them. He was in the earlier ones. Right. And so he actually had already started, they had filmed one scene when they dropped him an interesting little side note here, there is oftentimes in Hollywood contracts, there's something called a morality clause, which essentially allows the, um, studio to drop someone if they've violated the morals. Right. Right. There was no morality clause. So they still had to pay Johnny de 

Out like 15 million bucks. Right. For one scene. And 

<laugh> yeah. I, I don't know the number, maybe it was 15 million. 

I, I know it was a lot a dough. That's all I 

Remember. Certainly in the multimillions. Yeah. Um, so, so he was dropped from that. He was not asked to come back and participate in the latest version of pirates of the Caribbean, which is the, 

You say Caribbean. Huh? I say Caribbean. 

Yeah. I mean, Caribbean blues, you know, <laugh>, it, it depends on who you listen to. 

It depends on your mood of the day. Right. Right. 

I say, em, both don't, don't try to pigeonhole me. I 

Won't, I'm not gonna box you in man, 

But, but he's not gonna be in the, uh, the next iteration of that series. Right. Which is maybe his most marque series. Right. You know, I mean, who, who doesn't know captain Jack Sparrow. 

Right. And I, and I think at this point, just given his long history of success in Hollywood, he's actually in a pretty good position where he can say, look, I would've made X amount on the low end X amount on the high end for this particular movie. I mean, he's an A-list movie star. It's what he is. I mean, he has that kind of command. Yeah. 

And there, there were some other smaller ones, like he was supposed to play, uh, Harry Houdini in a series and he got cut from that. So, so that's what his argument is. Colin is that all of that was due to tHebetse allegations from Amber herd. She is ruining my professional career to the tune of millions, to the tune of 50 million. Right, right. Exactly. That's, that's his argument. Her argument is gonna be this guy's a self-destructive drug and alcohol addict. Yep. Who was, you could see this coming a mile away. And this had nothing to do with her. He was self destructive and he was, he was heading to a bad end for years. 

Right, right. Um, so, you know, because basically in, in order to succeed here, um, and, and we we'll talk about the possible outcomes because the fact that they're basically each suing each other could lead to some very interesting jury verdicts. We'll talk about that in a little bit. But the point is, is that they've basically accused each other of abuse. Uh, you know, and they're, you know, they're, they're, they're in a position now where they have to supply evidence to the court. Johnny Depp has to provide evidence to the court to say, I'm not an abuser, but by the way, she is right. She of course has to say he is an abuser and I am not. Okay. So the, you just got more finger pointed and that's, what's going on in this ridiculous six week trial Russ, um, that we are currently on two thirds of the way through apparently. And, and 

Can we talk just for a moment about the fact that the two key witnesses, Johnny Depp and Amber herd are both very accomplished actors 

<laugh> yes. I'd love to talk about that. 

Like, cuz seriously, like there have been studies done where you're basically trying to figure out scientists have done studies, peer reviewed blinded studies, trying to figure out how good people are average people are at telling when someone is lying and spoiler, they are horrible. People cannot tell when someone is lying. Right. So now you have two actors whose job it is to convince people that, to get them, to emote with them and feel for them, like how are you possibly gonna take their testimony and do anything except say, I have no fricking idea. 

And you've seen, you've seen maybe you haven't seen the actual videos, but I'm sure many of you just in your Twitter or Facebook timeline, you've seen tHebetse screen grabs and you often see, you know, Amber herd looking just incredibly sad and merose, and then you see Johnny Depp looking kind of like, he's just very intense, very focused, very concerned. I mean, tHebetse are actors that they get paid to take on the persona of other people. I mean, I, I like Russ, how can anyone believe a dang word? THebetse people say 

Right? I mean, honestly, by the way, I like the use of dang there, you know, trying to 

Keep it clean for the kiddos out there. Let's 

Bring it back. Dang. 

We know some of those moms are out there in their cars right now with their, with the kiddos. Listen, we're trying to keep it fairly clean, fairly, 

Fairly. We make no promises. Right? Yeah. So, so that's, that's, that's kind like the baseline here. Like how can you possibly, but so now what do you do? You go to evidence, right, right. And the, the, the ridiculous thing about this and why it has everyone just so engrossed in it is because both of tHebetse people for years have been surreptitiously recording each other, right. Like for ye going back, like six years, they have been recording audio, recording video. Both of them have been doing it. Right, right. It's it's nuts. 

Right. I mean, Johnny Depp, before the publication, this oped like went over to Amber herd's. They met somewhere at a hotel or something like that. And he's got his recording device the whole time and he ends up talking to her and capturing all tHebetse statements that, uh, you know, she makes about this and it it's just ugly. It's it's <laugh> and, and, and it's stupid. Uh, but it's absurd. It is absurd. Um, but Russ, I guess we do have to talk about some of this evidence. I mean, a six week trial, I would imagine that there have been some interesting things that we need to at least discuss going on in this trial. 

Well, yeah. So let's, let's, let's set some groundwork for what they're trying to show. Right. Because Johnny Depp goes first, he's the one who's the plaintiff, right. He's the one who's suing. So how does he possibly show that she's lying about this? That he's not an abuser. I mean, he can't just show video of the past six years showing he's never abused. So what he does, what he has to do is essentially attack her credibility. Right. And he has to make her look so unbelievable that a jury could not believe anything. She says, and including what she said in this op-ed that's. Right. Right. So that's, that's his that's that's his strategy. Right. Right. And so there have been a bunch of things like witnesses, testifying about Amber heard doing odd things. 

Yeah. You, you, you've got a bunch of eyewitnesses, like you've got bodyguards for tHebetse people, right. Talking about how one person threw like a soda can at the other person. Right. Um, you know, I know there's this severed finger incident that, so, so Johnny Depp has taken the stand, uh, which by the way, you don't have to do, but he did in this case, he testified for four days, Amber herd has also taken the stand at this point. Uh, you, and again, we, you've probably seen the screen grab showing tHebetse people. Um, but really what they're it, what they're doing is they're in addition to themselves, testifying, they're basically calling it. It seems to me like anybody <laugh>, who was around any sort of bad interaction that tHebetse two people had and getting him on the stand to talk 

About it. Yeah. Anyone and everyone. So like great. One, one of Johnny Depp's like stronger pieces of evidence was a recording. He made where he went to Amber herd and they were talking and he was secretly recording. And she admits he's, he's saying, remember when you punched me. Right. Because Johnny Depp is saying he was a victim of domestic abuse right. At, at her hands. Right. That she abused him physically and emotionally and mentally. Right. But physically. And so he goes there and he says, you know, you remember when you hit me? And she says, I didn't, I didn't. Oh, no. He says, remember when you punched me and she says, I didn't punch you. I hit you <laugh>. And so, right. So it's not, doesn't look good for her. Right. Because she is admitting to hitting her multiple ti hitting him multiple times. And this is exactly what he says happened throughout their relationship. He was the victim here. She would hit him. She would withdraw, she would run away. And that is evidence that the jury can consider as it goes to her credibility in making tHebetse allegations in the op-ed. 

Right. But, you know, look, I mean, again, both of tHebetse people are, in my opinion, desperately trying to find any piece of evidence to discredit the other. Here's kind of a fun nugget Russ. Let's talk more about the a C L U um, back. I, I think it was shortly before or around the time that Amber heard wrote her op-ed in the Washington post. She had Al she had completed her divorce from Johnny Depp. They signed NDAs agreeing not to talk about what happened. She also said she was gonna take her 7 million settlement and donate it to the a C L U. And I think there was another agency that she was gonna donate to as well. Yeah. One other not, but she specifically said, I'm gonna donate this Johnny Depp and his legal team sought the subpoenaed, the a C L U and got them to testify that no, in fact, she has not donated any of the settlement money that she's only donated about $350,000 of her pledge, 7 million pledge. 

And, you know, Amber is apparently trying to say, well, you know, my financial situation has changed. So I'm gonna make this a gift over the course of 10 years. But the reason, the reason that Deb is wanting this info, uh, at the forefront of the jury is so that they start to have credibility issues with her. It, it goes to her credibility. Like she can't be trusted. She say, she said she was gonna give the a C L U $7 million. And she didn't, but that's, that's how dirty this is getting. Right? Right. So let's actually take a break here for a minute. We're gonna play, is this legal with our podcast guest? And then we're gonna come back and get into this trial a little bit more. We'll be right back. 

Our guest today is John Ruay. John, as a student at the university of Tennessee, Chatanooga majoring in civil engineering. But for the purposes of our podcast, his claim to fame is being the disparaged brother of Philip Ru our guest from episode 71, loyal listeners will remember that Phil after successfully answering the, this is the, is this legal question through his brother, John under the bus as the least likely member of the Ru brothers to get the answer. Correct. Well, John, it is now time for redemption. Welcome to the show. 

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, no. Uh, as soon as I heard the podcast, you know, I, I saw you a text. I shot you a text and I said, this isn't right. I, I will <laugh> I don't get my own shot shot. 

Wait, will you Sue us? Or will you Sue your brother? I guess that we need to figure that out first? 

Uh, no. Why not? Both. You know, much everyone involved. 

Why not? Like let's throw whatever we can against the wall sticks. 

That's that's the shotgun approach. We call it in, in the why that works. Sometimes you never know. 

All right, well, so how this is gonna work, John, you know, because you've listened to our podcasts, you are gonna get a legal scenario. This is gonna be thrown to you by Colin. And you are gonna have to say, is this legal? What is the answer to that question now? I mean, are you ready to redeem your good name that has been dragged through the mud by your brother? Yeah. 

You know, I, I watched a lot of true crime in preparation for this almost immediately after I heard the podcast, I actually started binging, true crime and everything I could to study up. So I'm, I think I'm ready. 

Yes. All right. Well then, uh, John let's play 

Is this illegal. Here is your scenario. Our good friend, JBA Diah is drinking. Once again, he has a new girlfriend who is temporarily staying with him in his moon shine shack. And one night after a few tankers of me, he gets into an argument with her and he throws a cup at her and it hits her in the face. She calls Constable Cornelius, who gleefully takes down her statement about what happened and arrests Jebediah for assault. The case gets assigned to district attorney, Myrtle for prosecution. Two weeks later before the trial, though, the girlfriend meets with da Myrtle and says, this assault never happened. I was mad at JBI Diah because I thought he was dating the livery stable gal. And I fabricated tHebetse allegations. I do not want to press charges against JBI. Diah John, your question. Does district attorney Myrtle have to dismiss the case against JBA? Diah based on what this woman told her? 

Oh, uh, you know, I I'm thinking that since she called the cops and he was arrested and they went through the whole process. I don't know if you can just go back on your word like that. I think, uh, I think the district attorney can continue the prosecution. 

Well, I'll tell you one thing. Let me just tell you one thing about your, uh, answer. I think you just proved that your brother Phil doesn't know Jack's squad about your legal acumen, cause you are right. Woo, woo. Nicely done. Uh, so, uh, way to redeem yourself, but Russ, uh, Russ has a follow up for you, John. We're not done with you yet. 

Here's the chance for bonus points. All right, John. So let's see if you could go two for two, right? Same fact pattern, except rather than telling Myrtle that the girlfriend wants the case dismissed. The girlfriend tells Myrtle that she exaggerated the whole incident. She told the police, the cup really hurt when it hit her, but she tells Myrtle it didn't actually hurt at all. And actually it hit her in the arm, not the face. She didn't really suspect the delivery, stable gal at all. She was just mad that JBA wouldn't watch dirty dancing with her and she wanted to hurt him. Like he hurt her when he called Jennifer Gray, a no talent hack. 

Well, that should be its own crime as is 

Watching dur well, watching dirty dancing or criticizing Jennifer Gray, 

Uh, criticizing Jennifer Gray. Yes. 

Obviously can agree with that. 

So, so with that new scenario, John does Myrtle is Myrtle required to turn that information over to the defense or can she just stay quiet and move forward with the prosecution? 

Oh, is what was the name of the, uh, district attorney again, 

Her name's Myrtle. 

Myrtle is Myrtle on the woman's side. Is the Myrtle like the, the woman's attorney or is the 

Myrtle is the state 

She represents the state. Uh, okay. But, you know, but she, she is the one prosecuting Myrtle based on, uh, based on the girl's original statement. 

Well, I would, uh, I would assume that, uh, he probably does have to tell the defense, or I would assume that in court, the defense would question him on it and he would, uh, say what she told him in court. Maybe I think that would be my answer. 

Uh, my answer is can someone get this guy a law degree? Cause, uh, who knows what he's talking about? <laugh> 

John, you got it again there. Yeah, absolutely. She has to disclose that because that is exculpatory evidence that's stuff that makes it less likely that JBA Diah did this. And that has to be disclosed. Jebediah has an absolute right to have that evidence in trial. So you, my friend went two for two, 

By the way, we didn't explain why you were right on the first question either. Uh, you were absolutely correct bill. Um, once that allegation, uh, was made to the police and law enforcement and the district attorney, those people, uh, those people have the decision that they can decide whether to prosecute or not really. There's no such thing as pressing charges. It's, uh, they can consult with her on what she'd like to see happen, but ultimately it's their decision, not the girls on whether or not to go forward or 

Not. I mean, we, we, we didn't need to explain it because John explained it. 

I already, I already knew it. <laugh>. 

I mean, honestly, let's just edit out what I just said. Cause it's just filler 

All. Well, John, it has been a pleasure having you thank you for taking some time to do this. And I mean, now we have, now we have two of the five brothers down Colin. Um, I think, I think we have a follow up for, uh, John 

Don't we? Yeah, I'm kind of curious, John, um, you obviously ACE this thing. Do you think, uh, any of your remaining brothers, is there one in particular that you think might have a little bit of problem a problems with? Is this legal? 

You know, I was hoping you would, uh, ask me this question. Cause I thought I thought about an answer to this one. <laugh> uh, I would say that generally all my brothers first off are fantastic at everything they do, you know? They're, they're just absolutely amazing. All 

Right. Enough of this 

<laugh> I would, oh, hold on. Let me get, I was justing it so I could fashion harder. I would say that there's one brother who, when everyone's in a, an argument, I'd say there's one brother who's probably a little more wrong, uh, than everyone else. And uh, I would say that person is Joseph. I would say when the discussion gets a little more, uh, scientific, I would say Joseph is most likely to get it wrong. Uh, all right, 

Joe, did you hear that the, the 

Gauntlet is thrown down. 

I gotta call somebody out and you know, I've gotta say it's Joseph. I gotta say Joseph, the weakest link on this one. 

Alright, well, listeners, we are gonna try to get Joseph on a future episode and we can keep this streak. See if we could keep this streak going with the, uh, with the Ruay boys. 

I just wanna say, I, I hope he gets it right, but <laugh> my 

Dad, but you're not confident. 

<laugh> Hey, I I'm in the air 50 50. Okay. 

All right. Fair enough. Awesome, John. Fair enough. Well, thank you so much for joining our show today. And is there anything you wanna plug anything? Uh, we should know about our listeners should know about 

You. Anyone you wanna shout out to, 

Uh, shout out to my dog chip. He's a great dog. I love him a lot. That's about it. All 

Chip. Hopefully, 

Listen, he's a loyal listener chip. 

I'll make sure chip tunes in. Don't worry. That's another view for you. All right. 

Fantastic, John, thank you so much. We appreciate it and be safe. 

Yeah. Thank you for having me for letting me, uh, send my name. 

<laugh> bye. Bye buddy. 

Welcome back everyone. So now let's get into what Amber herd did in her rebuttal case. Um, she was able to admit some terrible texts, terrible texts from Johnny Depp to a friend of Johnny depths. THebetse are going back to when they were before they were even married. Okay. So there's texts from Johnny Depp to a friend of his, that basically say to the friend let's burn Amber and the friend takes it as a joke. And he's like, oh, like a witch. I don't even know if she's a witch. You know, maybe we should, you know, do like the English, uh, drowning test first. And, and Deb's response was let's drown her, then burn her. Yeah. Then, and it gets worse, right? I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna not go into it, but terrible texts. There are videos that she has submitted showing depth, just angry, right? Just angry. They don't show physical abuse, but they show him slamming cupboards around. They show him abusing alcohol. Right. Um, they're not flattering to Johnny Depp. And so tHebetse guys are both airing, so much dirty laundry. Um, and it's basically what she's saying is look at how he acts, this is emotional abuse and this makes it more likely that my op-ed is true. 

Right, exactly. So, you know, I'm looking at this though. And, and I, I don't want to oversimplify it because it's really hard to oversimplify a case that this big, that this that's this big with so many witnesses, but Russ I'm looking at this. And it seems to me that if she can point to just one, uh, legitimate episode of abuse that she suffered at the hands of Johnny Depp. And I think honestly, based on, based on her loosely, uh, worded language in the op ed, I mean domestic abuse, I think it doesn't have to be physical. I think it can be emotional abuse if she can get 12 people to agree that at least one time Johnny Depp inflicted abuse on her. I think she should win this lawsuit. Now, now again, she has to defend her own claim against Johnny, against Johnny Depp. Um, but just from his, his, uh, standpoint in terms of what she actually said in the op ed, I don't think she has much to get over the hill for, in order to succeed on this. Yeah. What 

Do you think? No, I, I think that's right. I think, cuz she didn't say like, well I, you know, if I'm, if I'm Johnny Depp's lawyer, I'm saying this is clearly an allegation that she is a chronic victim of domestic abuse. You don't become, um, a public figure representing domestic abuse. If you get slapped one time and this is more than just saying that once upon a time I was abused mentally. He, he, my, my husband was mean to me and abused me mentally. And therefore I'm the face of representing domestic abuse. I don't think it's that low of a bar that she has to get by. But generally I agree with you. Like I think that if she can show that there was, I'll say significant, you know, it's not a legal standard. That's my own word. But if there was significant abuse, I think she wins. Right. I think you're right. And that's why Johnny Depp is doing everything he can to basically show that she's crazy. Right. You know that she's, he, he puts someone on saying she has a borderline personality disorder and I mean, Colin now might be a good time to get into some of the more Sal salacious. Salacious is the perfect word for 

It. It is. It's a great word in general. Oh, let's let's hear about it. Russ. What are, what, what are some of the more salacious, uh, things that have come out this trial? All 

Right. So, so one is <laugh> is, um, lovingly referred to as the Australia finger severing episode. Okay. So that is where they are Johnny Depp and Amber herd are in Australia. They're filming one of the pirates movies with, uh, Johnny Depp and they are abusing alcohol, at least if not drugs as well. And they are having a fight, which is common by this, at this point. Right? And they are depending on who side you believe, um, no matter what it ends with the tip of Johnny Depp's finger being completely sheared off. Johnny Depp says that they were in a fight and Amber heard he's, he's doing shots of vodka. She takes a bottle, chucks it at him, misses then goes and grabs a handle of vodka. The same one he's taken shots out of chucks it at him. Again, his hand is on the edge of a bar and the bottle shatters on the edge of a bar on his hand and a glass shard shears off the tip of his finger. Okay. Tip of his finger is by the way, found later by like the property manager, when he's cleaning up this mess in a wadded up paper towel. Wow. I mean, UN 

Unbelievable. Did, did they work the missing finger into the par pirate script? 

Right? They, they 

Did not. Did they have an explanation for that? 

I mean, they should 

Have captain Jack's Sparrow. What's wrong with your hand. This is nothing. Ghost 

Pirates, ghost pirates got me. This 

Is almost the day that you captured captain Jack's. That's not even how he talks, but you know, no, that's why I'm not an 

Actor. I actually have a nephew who does a spot on impression and I should just get him to record it and inject this into an episode. It remind me people and I'll try to do that cuz it's amazing. I'm 

Not gonna remind you. I'll probably forget, but well, 

Yeah, not you people 

<laugh> well, Russ, so there's this finger severing incident. Uh, what else do we got there's um, should we talk about the defecation incident? 

How can we not talk about the defecation incident? Yeah. 

Russ, what, what happened? 

So this is her 30th birthday party. Um, 

There's a 23 year old ages, uh, difference between tHebetse two people. I didn't know that until I started researching this. So yeah, 

Just, yeah. They're they're not close in age. So her 30th birthday party, they are fighting as per the norm. Um, she is going to Coachella the next day. 


Coachella, sorry. I've never been clearly. 

It's it's a female, not a male it's <laugh> 

Coachella the next day. And so, um, they fight the night before she has a party with her friends. They fight, um, nothing physical happens that night. They separate, he goes to stay in a different apartment cuz he's got like 14 houses around the world. Right. Um, and the next day he talks to his security chief and says, Hey, I'm gonna go back to the apartment because I, I, in this fight, I broke up with her and I'm gonna go get my personal items because she should be gone to Coachella and her, uh, his, his security chief said, I don't think that's a good idea for you to go right now because, uh, I just got this picture from the cleaning crew. Um, and take a look and it is human feces on his side of the bed. 

Oh, how do we think that got there Russ? 

Well, the, the implication is that she left it there. Amber heard left it there for him 

Because a personal calling card. 

Here's, here's a little truth. Here's a little something for breaking 

Up with me. Here's a little something, uh, that reminds me of you. <laugh>, here's what you are perhaps. 

Here's what I think of you. And you know, there's, there's like she apparently admitted to it to a different employee, maybe to the same, to some security person there's allegations that she told the cleaning crew. She tried to blame it on his teacup. Yorkshire's Yorkies and, and Johnny depths, you know, response was pretty funny. He's like, I've cleaned up the funk and this was not dog funk, right. Or something to that effect. 

Um, and I mean, there's also this incident that she alleges that, uh, while he was, uh, doing a bunch of cocaine, uh, he <laugh> misplaced to, 

Well, he wanted to do more cocaine and he couldn't find 

His cocaine. So what better place to look than, um, he decided to perform a body cavity search on Amber herd to see if she was hiding his cocaine in some place that presumably the sun doesn't shine. Yeah. 


Uh, so I mean, you talk about dirty laundry, like literally dirty laundry, uh, has been coming up in this case. I mean, 

How about that NDA with the divorce to not talk about the 

Marriage. Yeah. So much for that. Right. Um, so I mean basically, yes, you, you got two people who are going out of their way to smear the other person because that's how either of them are gonna win this lawsuit. Now, Russ, how could this end, let's talk about that. And then we'll just, uh, talk about more shenanigans regarding this 

Thing. It could, it could end badly. Yeah. 

<laugh> in 

It's I'll be honest. I don't see this working out for either of tHebetse people. 

The, the only, I don't either. I mean, from a PR standpoint, we talked about it. Like this is bad for both of them. Yeah. There is so much bad stuff. Neither of them looks good. Right. Both of them look either abusive or crazy or both. 

Right, right. 

They both are coming out of this smelling like Yorkshire 

<laugh> <laugh> 

If you'll, if you'll pardon the analogy 

<laugh> so, so, 

So, so this could, this could come out either. He, when she loses, right. 

She saw about that. The jury, there are multi, there's a multiple combination of, of outcomes. In this case, you go ahead. I didn't mean interrupt 

You. No, that's all right. Yeah. She wins. He loses, right? She, he, they find that his claim is unfounded. She is the victim of sexual, uh, domestic violence. And so she wins and they also find that she was, that she was the victim of this defamation when his attorney called it a hoax. 

Right. They could, they could find for both parties, they could say, you know what? We think that both of you have proven the claim against each other. Um, we think that you're both damaged, you know, we, we, and, and so they could do that. They could say we fine for neither of you. Right. Right. We don't believe that either of you have met your, uh, legal burden to prove defamation in this case, 

If they find for your 

Defecation, in this case, we find there's defecation, but not notation. Yeah. That, that one letter really matters. 

If, if they find, if they find for Amber herd and not Johnny de you know, he is gonna be, or if they find for both, I'm sorry, you know, Johnny, DE's gonna be kicking himself. He's like, why didn't I Sue for a hundred million? I know I'm not 50. Dang it. But that, that's actually not how it works. Right. Well, 

So damages, I mean, just because he's claiming he wants $50 million. That doesn't mean if he wins, he gets $50 million. Right. I mean, tHebetse are nebulous numbers. Yeah. Um, basically the jury could say, you know what? We, we do think that, uh, Amber's op-ed was false. That the statement she made was false. So yet Johnny de you're a winner, we award you $1. Right. 

And there's, and there's precedence. This happens. Yeah. 

They could basically say, we don't think you've been damaged. We don't think that this has hurt your representation, uh, your represen, your, your image. Right. Um, we don't think that this has harmed you in any way. 

There's, there's actually really a really sidebar. We can edit this out if it's no good. All right. So like, uh, Henry Ford was sued, sued the Chicago times on the Chicago paper because the Chicago paper published an article saying, calling him a moron, essentially saying Henry Ford is an idiot. So they got him on the stand and they, the, the paper, the paper attorneys were asking him all tHebetse questions that he had no answers to. And his response was why would I learn all that? When I can push a button and have someone come in and tell me the answer <laugh> they ultimately found for Henry Ford, they found that there was a claim there and they issued a $1, uh, damage. 

Exactly. Like, yeah, sorry, man. We're not gonna make you a millionaire over this. Yeah. 

You you're already a millionaire. 

Yeah. So, I mean, there's no guarantee that either of tHebetse parties are gonna get a huge windfall and Russ let's just, how much do you think? I mean, just ballpark, how much do you think both of tHebetse parties have shelled out in legal fees in attorney fees, in investigation fees? I, I guarantee you, they didn't go run to the strip mall and hire like a better call cell type lawyer. THebetse are high powered LA attorneys. I mean, I, I, we forgot to mention this case is, uh, not being held in California. I didn't realize that this is actually being tried in Fairfax county, Virginia, why Fairfax county it's because that is the home base of the Washington post, which published the article. So that's essentially the location where the libel was committed allegedly. Right. Um, so that's why we're in Virginia, but you know, Russ 

To answer your question millions, 

Right? It's gotta be millions, 

Millions in with everything. And you know, how much is this costing? You know, the court system, tHebetse, tHebetse jurors who have to sit there for six weeks is 

Missing work six week trial, man. I mean, that's the thing that his eyes always bothered me about this Russ. I mean, like I said, your average murder case takes two to three, maybe four weeks for a really complicated one to get to, to verdict from the beginning to end, unless 

It's in California. 

<laugh> unless it's the OJ trial, which took nine months. Yeah. Something's going on in California. We'll um, eventually get to the bottom of that. But, uh, I mean, a Virginia courtroom has decided that six weeks are necessary to let tHebetse two people just go at each other's throats about this. So, I mean, this must have cost them millions, not to mention, I'm just sitting here. I mean, I'm a lawyer, maybe I'm outta my wheelhouse, but with regard to the court of public opinion, I mean, there's, there's been a lot of articles indicating that internet support and I'm using air quotes. There seems to favor Johnny Depp. Like he has a machine of fans who are, you know, basically putting up clips of the trials and, and they're altering their, their, you know, putting 'em on YouTube, like, look at, look at, uh, Johnny Depp's, lawyer smear Amber herd on the stand, you know, there's, there's, he's kind of got this PR machine that's working for him that doesn't, that doesn't really help him. I mean, unless tHebetse jurors are big fans and you know who, who the hell knows, 

And I'm sure there's, uh, orders for the juries not to consume any of that. I don't think there's, I don't think they're sequestered 

Are, they're not sequestered. I, I, I was wondering about that myself. I looked it up. They are not sequestered. They've been simply ordered to not, um, pay attention, anything about the trial, which you got 12 people going home every day, talking to their spouses. Good luck with that on a six week trial. Yeah. And right now there's, we're in the middle of a week. We're recording this on whether there's a break in the proceedings. Yeah. I, I guarantee you, people are 

Running the house there's off right now. I assume for the judge to just kind of wrap, wrap his head around how absurd the proceedings are, 

Why didn't I find a summary judgment against one of tHebetse parties and kick this thing? Why, why, 

Why didn't I go to med school instead? <laugh> I think is what he's thinking right now. 

I think that's right. So, um, yeah, right now we don't have an answer to this. We don't know how it's gonna come out. There's a multitude of ways. Really. We're just, uh, talking about how ridiculous this is. So, um, Russ, um, what are the lessons to be learned from this? What, what can we, what can we teach our kids, uh, using this as example? What, what are the, what are the teaching moments that we can take from this case? 

So from Johnny Depp's perspective, it's either don't, don't bring a weak case and spend millions on it when you're gonna get dragged through the mud as well. Or it's, if you wanna burn someone down and you don't care what it does to yourself, then this is a really good move and you've done a good job of just ruining people's lives. 

Well, let's go back to something that you said at the beginning of, of this recording. I mean, what are the motivations for tHebetse folks? It's hard to tell because, um, I think there might be something to be said, you know what? I'm Johnny de I've been around. I've made 124 movies. I'm a multiple academy award nominee. I'm this guy, Amber herd was an Aquaman. And by the way, I didn't see Aquaman. Did you see Aquaman, Russ? You 

Know, I, uh, I, I'm probably going to offend some people out there, but I started watching it and I I'm a fan of superhero movies and I started watching it. I could not get through past the first 15 minutes of it. I thought it was the worst. One of the worst movies I've ever seen. I could not, I couldn't finish it. 

Wow. Um, and 

I, I, I, I got out of it before Amber heard even made an appearance, so who knows, maybe she would've come on and saved it completely. And it would've been my favorite movie of all time. 

I had never heard of Amber heard prior to this lawsuit. She was, she 

Was seen some 

Stuff. I maybe seen her FA I mean, I, I, I get the fact, obviously she's buried to Johnny de I'm sure I've seen her before, but I, I, the only thing I'm trying to maybe say is, I, I think in terms of who has more star power, I feel like it's Johnny Depp. Yeah. And he, I'm also making an assumption. I don't know, but I'm also assuming that he has more means and more net worth where he can throw more money at this 

Thing. I mean, he certainly has earned more, but if half the stories are true, right. He also spends 

2 million a month on his expenses, the $30 a month on wine. I mean, 

He spent, uh, he spent 5 million to have, um, hunter Thompson, 

Hunter, Thompson's asHebets blown out of a 

Can out a cannon, 

Great story. That's, 

That's some extravagant, you know, so he can, he can spend, 

So, uh, let's close out this discussion, um, as appropriately as we can. Um, Russ, what is your favorite Johnny de movie? 

So, I mean, I think my favorite Johnny Depp character is probably, uh, captain Jack Sparrow. Yeah. Although like Edward Scissorhands is great movie. Pretty unbelievable. Like, I mean, he's, he's a phenomenal actor. Yeah. You know, he has done some awesome. I mean, I'm a huge fan of Johnny Depp in his breakout role, which is, um, 

Nightmare and Elm 

Street, nightmare and Elm street. Yeah. The original, yeah. He's he's if anyone didn't know this, but you'll remember this scene from nightmare and Elm street, the scene where the guy goes to sleep and finally falls asleep on his bed and he sucked down into the middle of the bed, through the bed. And then just an explosion of volcano of gore comes out. That's Johnny Depp. <laugh>, that's his gore right there. 


That is, that is captain Jack Sparrow at a very young age. 

Um, can I talk about his worst movies? Would that be all right? 

I think that would be perfectly appropriate. We just talked about some of his best, 

I mean, I, sleepy hollow really me off. Uh, I saw that in theaters. I think it's back in like 1999. This is Ichabod crane. Yeah. Yeah. Crane. And, you know, I like like most, uh, people, my age, I'm sure that you were terrorized by the Disney cartoon with the headless horseman, which was one of the scariest things I've ever seen with the, my parents felt like I needed to see that, uh, you know, when I was five years old and I think I needed to sleep with the light on for like the next three years and therapy helped too. But, you know, but yeah. I mean, sleepy hollow takes all tHebetse liberties with the plot. They bake him instead of a school master. He becomes like a cop. And I don't know he's, it was just a bad movie. I didn't like that. I also didn't like him, uh, in Allison Wonderland or Charlie in the chocolate factory, 

You got pretty bad. Well, Charlie, in the chocolate factory, how do you possibly follow G Wilder? I mean, I guess if anyone can do it, they would think it'd be Johnny depo. You can't follow gene Wilder. 

Right. Have you seen that bizarre commercial where I think it's a, like a perfumer, a cologne, but he's standing in the middle of the desert playing guitar. Have you seen this? It's so weird. 

I have seen it. And I think that's actually one of the few things he still has. Like, he has not been dropped from that. Okay. 

I think. And so he's got that going for him. He still got the collaborate. 

I mean, I assume if you go over to Asia, like he's probably everywhere on billboards. <laugh> right. 

Oh man. Um, yeah, I, again, we'd go through Amber herd's stuff, but I haven't seen any of her movies. That's not a knock on Amber herd. I, I, I just, like I said, I don't know much. 

She was in zombie land. Was 

She really? Yeah. What, what was her role in there? I love that movie. 

She was a zombie. Um, and, but she was one. Oh 

Yeah, she was, she was, yeah. I remember she was in the opening scene. She gets killed 

Maybe. Yeah. But she's, she definitely has a part in it. Okay. 

Um, all right. She was pretty good in that. <laugh> see. There we go. You, her props for 

That showing her some range. 

All right. Uh, well, um, if this wasn't, uh, a stupid podcast let's let's make it really stupid then. 

I don't know what, what was <laugh> 

That's right. Uh, let's let's switch it up. It is time for 

D she, 


T you 

That's right. Uh, Russ, we're not going to Florida on this one. 



Yeah, we're going to Portland, Oregon. Okay. Actually, um, so this is pretty funny, uh, target. We don't have a name on this one. Um, that's alright. Um, I'll just call him Jack Sparrow. What the heck? Uh, a nameless thief that we'll call Jack Sparrow in Portland, Oregon executed the almost perfect robbery. Um, but it wasn't quite perfect breast. Yeah. 


The guy took precautions. Um, he broke into a house house. He was wearing gloves. He was wearing a stocking cap. He was wearing a mask that was good because the house had some security cameras in there. And, uh, you know, he is not able to, uh, you know, no one, he 

Identified exactly. 

He's so far so good. He's doing everything right. He's going through some drawers in this house, stealing everything of value that he can. He's got his gloves on so far, not leaving any evidence. Well, uh, that all ended when apparently during this, uh, burglary, he got a little thirsty. He, he was parched. And so, uh, the camera shows him walking into the kitchen, uh, opening the refrigerator and grabbing a bottle of sunny D and taking a giant swig from it. He then takes the sunny delight and puts it in the sink and leaves the house. So of course, um, the police are called. They review the footage, they see this, they take the sunny delight container. Yeah. And are able to get DNA swab from it. No 

Sunny D no. 

And lo and behold of the sunny delight container, a revealed DNA saliva that was left on the container. They were able to compare that through the Coda system and they got a hit. And so they got their burglar. They arrested him, uh, because this guy, uh, was a sunny defense. So, uh, before we get to knuckleheads Russ, I would love to know your thoughts on Sony delight. 

Uh, I am not a fan. I am a purest orange juice guy. Like if you're gonna drink an orange flavored beverage, let's have it actually come from oranges instead of some weird concoction out of a, out of a lab, 

Apparently it's 4%, uh, real fruit juice and 96% something else. Um, I'm gonna tell you, sunny D man, this brought back memories. Russ. When I, when I found this, uh, DCO T I was like, oh man, back in the days, back in those early nineties, I used to drink that stuff down. Like Coca-Cola. Oh. And, um, you know, I think I eventually got away from it. Apparently they still do sell sunny delight only. It's not sunny delight anymore. They've rebranded now. It's just sunny D 

So you have to be old to know that it's actually delightful. 

Exactly. But I remember the commercials of all the kids, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is so healthy. Mom, go ahead, son. Have more, you know, it was, um, just, 

I think, I think the other 96% is high fructose corn syrup. 


4% fruit juice, 96% high fr toast, 

Corn syrup. There's gotta be some MSG in there. Maybe a little crack cocaine, maybe just 

A little bit, maybe, maybe some age and orange for color <laugh> 

<laugh> so, uh, let's talk about our thief, man. I mean, gosh, he did everything right up until that, uh, trip to the refrigerator. So what do you think, man? 

I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna say it's it's dumb, but he was, he was smart for a lot of it. I'm gonna give him like a, a three. 

Yeah, I think a three's right, man. Yeah. Dan, he, he at least got some Sonny D out of it. I mean, he, he, he did, 

He did quench his thirst. 

Right. Um, so Ross, I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna come back to our case on Amber real quick. Just we'll wrap up with this question. Do you think that she regrets penning that op-ed in 2018? 

I honestly don't see how she can't. She doesn't wanna get dragged through all this. Now, if she wins, if she successfully defends Johnny suit and wins a hundred million, uh, verdict, then I'm gonna change my answer. <laugh> so, so, so I'm gonna reserve the right to change my answer, but right now I'm gonna say she 

Regrets it. I agree with everything you just said. I guess time will tell the, find out if we are right or wrong on that. So, um, we're gonna call out a, an episode. Uh, we would like to thank our listeners for tuning in as always, please let us know if, uh, you have any feedback you can find us on Twitter at is this legal pod. You can find our Facebook page habits. Macallen drop us an email. Uh, we're fine with that. Uh, Denver crime If you want to directly reach out to us, let us know what you think. Russ, you got anything else? 

Nothing else. Be safe, everyone out there and enjoy the craziness. Bye bye.